(bright music) (gentle music) - This is "10thirtysix."

I'm Portia Young.

One of Southeast Wisconsin's top leaders is retiring.

Milwaukee Archbishop Jerome Listecki handed in his official retirement papers on his birthday, March 12th when he turned 75.

The age canon law requires all bishops to submit their resignation.

I sat down with the archbishop to talk about his successes during his tenure that began in 2010, as well as the challenges, and the future of the Catholic Church.

Congratulations on your retirement.

- Thank you, Portia, thank you.

- And on your 75th birthday.

- Thank you.

- Let's talk about retirement, because by canon law you have to retire at 75.

- Right.

Just for a little specificity, it's 4011.

So it demands that when the ordinary of a place, and I would be the ordinary of the Archdiocese of Milwaukee reaches the age of 75, he dutifully must submit his resignation to the pope.

So it's by canon law that I must do that.

It is almost the pro forma thing.

So it's not sort of like, I'm the pope and I'm demanding your resignation.

No, it's not that at all.

It's that every bishop must do that.

And it's bishops who have governance, so I govern a territory of the 10 counties of the Archdiocese of Milwaukee.

So I'm called upon to submit my resignation.

And there's a wisdom to it.

I'd be the first to stand in line and say, oh, it's very smart to do this because we all know as we get a little older that the desire might be there, but the physical ability to keep up with the demands certainly grow more difficult every year.

And so 75 is a good time.

And it's not like at 75 I have to move out, I pack everything and I leave.

It's submitting your resignation and then you wait for the pope to announce your successor.

- It could take a couple years, - It could.

In some instance it has in the continental United States, so it could take a couple years.

The process will usually go three, six, nine months, maybe a year, maybe two years, but it's very important I think for everybody to know that they really attempt to do a thorough job of vetting the successor to whoever is retiring.

- Well, let's talk about the Milwaukee Archdiocese.

What makes it, as you said, attractive to perhaps your successor?

- We've gone through, basically, bankruptcy.

So for five and a half years we were in bankruptcy and once we were able to come out of bankruptcy, we maintained, if you want, a little bit more of an economic stability that we were able to achieve.

We have our seminary is totally filled, and it has become a provincial seminary, which means that all of the diocese of Wisconsin send their men to Francis de Sales Seminary.

So the seminary is really, there's a pride in that.

Our diaconate, a couple years ago I ordained 16 to the permanent diaconate, which was the largest number in almost 40 years in the Archdiocese of Milwaukee.

This all bodes well.

On top of that, we have a program for our lay ministry, strengthening lay ministry.

And the lay ministry component is important for the functions of the parishes.

So you need professionally and very competent lay ministers to be able to make sure that our parishes run in coordination and collaboration with their pastors well.

So that's one aspect.

Catholic Charities, well-respected.

Catholic Charities seeks to do almost a coordination to make sure that the resources are targeted for those most in need.

So we're not multiplying services, but we're taking a look at how we can support others who are already doing the services and seek to do those things that are not being accomplished by others.

So a wonderful aspect, Catholic Charities.

Our schools.

I think our schools might be the envy of the Catholic schools in the nation because we have very strong collaboration among our schools.

- You said you came in in 2010, it's been 14 years now.

When you look back at your tenure, what are some of the successes?

What are the accomplishments that you're most proud of?

- Well, you know, many people will say, ah, you led us through bankruptcy.

And I thank them very much.

I was glad we were able to go through bankruptcy to try to meet those who because of our bankruptcy, those who were injured, especially through that clergy sexual abuse aspect.

A new day for the church in terms of it.

I would tell you your child is safer in Catholic schools or any kind of activity that basically the parish is doing than maybe anyplace else in the society.

And I haven't forgotten the rest of the society, but I think that many of our public institutions, as well as some of our other private institutions, could really take an example from what the Catholic Church has gone through and has done and has produced basically really safe environments for our young people.

And it's my prayer that we would continue to assist the public institutions to be able to do that same type of accountability.

So that aspect I'm proud of.

Many people will kind of attribute that to me, but I'm most proud of the senate because in the midst of the bankruptcy, we called together the entire church, like, the Catholic Church, and with representatives, we declared what our priorities would be for the next 10 to 15 years.

And that was at 2014.

And so what made that so special is, as I said, there was a confidence and a trust that whether we would have 10 cents or $10 billion, we were gonna do the mission of the church.

The mission that Christ had established for his church, and we were going to accomplish it using these as our priorities going forward.

In fact, I always wear one pin.

People will see me wearing one pin, although I'm a member of all sorts of different organizations, 23 years with the military, and Equestrian Order of Knights, Knights of Columbus, Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulcher.

I have all these pins from all these, but this is the one I wear because I'm very proud of the accomplishment of the faithful and the people of this archdiocese.

It's clergy, it's faithful, in establishing a commitment and a trust to take the mission of Christ and to carry it forward.

- Well, let's talk about the challenges because you did lead the archdiocese and the faithful of the Catholic faith through that difficult time.

A lot of people were still very deeply hurt by what happened.

What is your message to the people who may still feel that way or who lost trust in the church?

What do you say to them?

- In every institution there are those or those that, quotes, are bad actors, you know, but I don't think you can judge the institution by the bad actions of a few.

You have to take a look at what, basically, that institution has accomplished over centuries.

And then the other aspect I would kinda say is this is the church established by Jesus.

And it will call those faithful to be responsive to his message.

And that message will be held out.

I regret what happened.

I, as a priest was appalled by the actions of those few.

So for me it was not only criminal, it was sinful.

And knowing, basically, that we all have to stand before God it was appalling, but having said that, it would be wrong if we did not do the correctives to make sure and to take a look at how our young people would be protected and served in the future.

And we did that.

I'm confident that we will continue to do that.

And I'm confident, I, as well as my successor will be vigilant in making sure that's always a priority in the archdiocese.

- How do we get people back to church?

- When you talk in terms of about getting people back into church, I'm not worried about people necessarily getting back to the church.

I think the Spirit will take care of that.

My sense is being able to practice the faith as it's basically been given to us without sometimes the constrictions that are placed by the government upon religion.

And I'll fight for the very first freedom that we established as the United States.

And that first freedom was not freedom of speech.

That first freedom was freedom of religion.

- And that's any religion.

- And that's any religion.

That's basically the ability to practice your religion without necessarily the constraints that come from a government who says, this is the way you should think, this is the way you should be.

- So you're saying that the secular religion is.

- The secular religion is established as thee religion now.

And I would argue that basically it violates the establishment clause of the United States Constitution.

- What is your message to the Milwaukee Archdiocese, the Catholic faithful here as you retire?

What's your message to them?

- Mine is a very simple one, and it's been very simple since the very beginning when I got here.

I used it to end all of my email messages to I don't know, there's some 14, 15,000 people I can think that get that message.

It's a very simple one, and a simple one to all of the faithful the archdiocese is love one another.

- Hear more from Archbishop Listecki next month here on "10thirtysix."

We continue our conversation now on mental health and "How We Heal" with a story about coping with a loved one's tragic death.

Producer and Psychotherapist, Elizabeth Cramer, talks with a Wisconsin man who struggled with his own depression, and then faced life without his wife who took her own life.

We wanna caution you that this story contains very sensitive and candid content about suicide.

(soft guitar music) - [David] You can be happy and sad at the same time, and often are.

And I think that's the fullest human experience really is if you can be in both of those places at once, you know.

- [Elizabeth] And it's okay, both can exist.

- [David] Yeah, if someone were to ask me right now, are you sad and if I said, yes, that would be honest.

If they were to say, are you happy?

I would say, yes, and that would be honest.

My focus can shift back and forth as necessary.

I could just play one chord and it says all that for me.

(soft guitar music) Hi, my name is David Bear, and I'm here to talk about my experience losing someone I love to suicide and about my own struggles with mental health.

(gentle music) - When you first got together and started dating, did you know that she struggled with mental health?

- When we first got together, I did, but not to the full extent of, not the full extent that she struggled.

We had very similar youth and teen experiences, so.

And a big part of that for both of us was struggles with suicidal ideation, with feelings of not fitting in.

We talked about those a lot.

So I was aware of her history, but I wasn't immediately aware of how it was affecting her in the present tense.

- When did you become aware of her struggle?

- There's sort of a chicken and the egg thing because related to her mental health struggles, she struggled with addiction too.

I found out about her ongoing struggles with addiction first, if she's struggling with using, to me that just meant she struggled with mental health too.

So kind of at the same time, I would suppose.

She always made it seem like she would hurt someone else before she'd hurt herself, so at the time, no.

- [Elizabeth] The anger was the forefront.

- Yeah, exactly, it was rare, at least about her own inner workings that she would express sadness.

She would express sadness for other people if they were struggling, but for herself it would come out as she was pissed off at the world.

- [Elizabeth] David and Alma met in New Orleans in 2008 and were married one year later.

After a series of crimes in their neighborhood, Alma became concerned about safety and self-defense.

- We lived in a pretty dangerous neighborhood.

She wanted to get a gun.

I was very much against it.

And what we essentially agreed upon was, I don't wanna see it, you know, it should always be locked up, put away.

So she had a gun and that was that.

- [Elizabeth] One day in 2011, Alma didn't return home at the usual time and David's phone calls went straight to her voicemail.

David was worried and walked to Alma's art studio to check on her.

- My first thought was she had relapsed and OD'd and that's when I put together, oh, well, there's a gun out, she's on the floor, she must have shot herself.

And that's what happened she shot herself.

(melancholy music) After she died it reframed my idea of myself in a way, too, because I've always thought of myself as a very perceptive person, very tuned in, and, you know, to find out you were missing something so major in the person you're closest to that definitely messes with your identity.

That is probably also something I think I probably still am coming to terms with.

What I absorbed myself in was either building my career, or when I wasn't doing that, drinking.

I was terrified of this becoming the defining event of my life because at that time, and in many ways it did become that, but at the time I couldn't see a way that could be the case and it'd a positive thing, you know.

I don't wanna become a tragedy case.

And so I did everything I could to be defined by anything else, good or bad.

And that on top of just also not having a plan, and not really putting in any effort to make one, you know.

That first year I didn't even see therapy.

I didn't even go to.

I did nothing that I was supposed to do, you know.

- [Elizabeth] What was healthy coping like?

- Talk therapy is a big one.

Having a relationship with her spirit, that was a big part of it.

And what I mean by that isn't that I'm, you know, talking to a ghost per se, but integrating who she was to me and to myself, and to my identity now.

Making her memory about our times together and the bond that we had, and not as much about the way her life ended.

Meditation, but that that took a while, that didn't come right away.

And that has become probably the dominant one that's still in my life, still is a major coping mechanism.

Also, creative expression, which is something that has always been a coping mechanism for me.

The memory I've had the hardest time alchemizing in any way has been the memory of calling her mom, having to tell her what happened.

- [Elizabeth] You told her parents.

- Yeah, that's something that I've just, I don't know how to make that memory a positive one, or at least one that has something I can take from it that's positive.

Yeah, it's very difficult.

- [Elizabeth] That sounds incredibly hard.

- Yeah.

- [Elizabeth] Especially on the cusp of you finding out yourself.

- Yeah, yeah, immediately, yeah.

Yeah, that's the hardest part.

(soft guitar music) - [Elizabeth] What would you have wanted her to know that you don't think she knew at that time?

- I want her to know that she was deserving of the love that she had, and that anyone who truly loved her, there's not enough relapses in the world to make anyone rather not have her around than have her around.

One thing I've noticed is it's not that people who take their lives think that they're not loved.

It's often that they think that in some way they don't deserve that love that they have, that they somehow have earned that love fraudulently.

That if anyone knew the truth about them, they wouldn't love them anymore.

So it's not a matter of going back and telling her I love her 'cause I know she knew that.

I would just want her to know that love was not ignorant of who she really was.

It was because of who she really was.

- Next month, Elizabeth takes a closer look at grief as we continue our series, "How We Heal."

"10thirtysix" celebrates Women's History Month with a positive story that's been around for over 30 years.

It's about supporting and empowering teen girls.

Here's producer, Alexandria Mack, with that story.

(gentle music) - [Deontrenique] We are PEARLS girls and we want to be our best selves.

- [All] All of the girls in this circle are my PEARLS sisters.

We are learning how each one of us is precious and unique.

- [Alexandria] It all starts with a promise.

- [All] PEARLS helps us believe in ourselves by building.

P is for personal responsibility.

- I can make a difference.

E is for empathy.

I will strive to understand how it feels to walk in your shoes.

- A is for awareness.

- [Alexandria] A string of principles.

- [All] I want to know more about myself and the world around me.

- R is for respect.

I will value you and your opinions even if we disagree.

L is for leadership.

- [All] I want to put my beliefs into action and make this world a better place.

S is for support.

I want to help and encourage.

- We promise to help each other practice these traits.

- We promise to help each other practice these traits.

- [All] We promise to help each other practice these traits.

- We want to become role models and powerful women.

- Who achieve our goals and dreams.

- [All] Thank you all for our precious time together today.

- [Alexandria] Linked together with a unified mission.

- I think everybody views it from a different lens.

I think for me it's like it's always for girls.

It's by girls for girls, and the girls kinda create the space themselves.

- Any girl, any girl.

PEARLS is a space for, like, think about when you were young, I mean, even as an adult.

We have peers because we go through things and we want a space where it would be like, is it just me?

And I think that it is critical to be what we wanted in our youth.

PEARLS was the first place where I saw a connection with adults and youth that wasn't a teacher-student, or a professor-student dynamic.

It was my introduction to what a trusted adult is.

So I got to see girls in the space that had, like, kind of like a very deep respect for their program coordinator, but also where they can be themselves and really let their hair down and be silly, and got to see adults be silly with girls.

- [Alexandria] A specific space for girls fifth through 12th grade to build community with each other and women mentors.

- [Jasmine] We started out as a volunteer initiative, one program coordinator, one site and that started in 1993.

So our founder, Colleen Fitzgerald, she's just like, you know what?

There needs to be a safe space for girls in the city of Milwaukee.

And we had one group those girls once a week and a lot of our foundational things was built in that space.

- What do I wanna be remembered for?

Just like this joyful young lady, like, I'm the GOAT.

(girls laughing) My name is Deontrenique, and I've been a girl since about sixth grade and I'm currently in 10th grade, so, like, around four to five years.

Think about what you wanna get out of life, what do you wanna be remembered for, and what kind of legacy do you want to leave behind?

- We kind of meet the girls where they're at, we understand their needs and we don't judge.

So in PEARLS we don't kind of accept or tolerate any type of bullying, whether it's social, emotional, or any type of, like, social media bullying or in group.

And the girls are kind of like, hey, if I wanna be in this space, I have to make sure to protect it.

So it's like up to them to kind of build that type of bond as well as with the facilitator to kinda get to know each other and be like, hey, I can't talk about these certain things and the girls in here won't judge me.

- It was just like the bond between the PC and I, and, like, and other girls as well.

And I'm like, I wanna see, like, I wanna be best friends with other girls.

I wanna cause an impact with other girls as well.

- [Alexandria] Preparing these girls to become the world's future bold women leaders.

- [Deontrenique] Heavy on leadership.

- [Girl] Heavy on leadership.

- It taught me how to talk to you today and allowed me to express how I feel because once upon a time I wasn't an outspoken kid, or, like, I was more of a shy, and, like, me coming in like they, I come in, like, the president, they're like, oh my God, Deontrenique, yeah.

- [Girls] We did it.

- We did it.

- That was quick.

That was quick.

- But we are intentional about teaching them how to build relationships with their peers, how to love themselves, teaching them how to strive to achieve for college and beyond with our CCR program, and introducing them to different aspects of the community.

(gentle music) - [Alexandria] Finding victories along the way.

- I think that success is seeing a girl become whatever it is that she wants to be, or even on the path to becoming whatever it is that she wants to be.

I would call success someone coming out of their shell, participating in a circle, answering a check-in question.

- [Interviewer] What do you wanna be remembered for?

- Probably for being, like, caring, and, like, always being able to help people.

- I wanna be remembered for just, like, like, a fun person to be around.

- I would call success, girls coming up to me in the city, like, Miss Jasmine, you remember me?

Like, I learned so much from you.

And so I would call those small treasures success and to continue to offer these safe spaces to girls and neighborhood centers, districts, schools, like those things.

Reaching, branching out to other populations, that is success to me.

The power of that safe space, success.

- It inspired me, empowered me, gave me courage that I can be myself.

- [Alexandria] 30 years of planting seeds for girls to reap success in their tomorrow.

- [All] PEARLS girls.

- We have an exciting update to our documentary, "A Hallowed Home for Heroes."

The story of the National Historic Milwaukee Soldiers Home.

In the documentary, the project manager for phase one of the restoration that included Old Main hinted that phase two could soon happen, and now we can say officially that three more historic buildings will get a facelift.

The Ward Memorial Theater, the chapel, and the governor's residence.

- We're very excited to be undertaking this development.

We hope to start construction come this time next year.

The theater, we're going to reuse it as a theater again.

So all of the interior spaces are gonna be redone while preserving and respecting the history that is within.

The Alexander Company team is gonna be the lead architect and we'll have a number of subcontractors that are gonna really help specialize with everything from the acoustics to the audio-visual, to the restoration of the murals and the posters from the vaudeville days.

So you will see those items preserved while bringing it to a theater that can be enjoyed by present day.

In regards to the chapel, you're going to see the sanctuary space redone for everything from counseling to religious services, weddings, funerals, and a number of different user groups are gonna be both interested in using the theater and the chapel.

The operator is gonna be The Center for Veterans Issues and they're gonna have headquarters in the governor's mansion.

I think that these next three buildings are going to be a challenge, but I think it's going to be a rewarding one.

- To watch our documentary, please go to our YouTube channel, or to milwaukeepbs.org.

That wraps up this edition of "10thirtysix" here on Milwaukee PBS.

Remember, you can always check us out on all of our media platforms.

We'll see you next time.

(gentle upbeat music)